Saskia Kerkvliet – Hanneke cited Saskia as the authority on proposal structure. Worth exploring for MSPs who want to strengthen their commercial storytelling. https://www.linkedin.com/in/saskia-kerkov/

HubSpot CRM – Hanneke mentioned that a “modern CRM” is critical for timely account actions, not just pipeline tracking. HubSpot is often a flexible fit for mid-sized MSPs. https://www.hubspot.com/products/crm

LinkedIn Sales Navigator – Ties into the discussion around tracking client job changes and outreach triggers—especially important in account management. https://www.linkedin.com/sales/

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Guest Introduction

[00:01:52] James Steel:
Hello everyone and welcome to what is basically the cutting room floor and season 2 of Harvest. Isn't this exciting? Here we go again. Listen, today I'm joined by Hanneke Vogels. She's the author of Sales Tech and she's a former business manager at KPN Internet Services, one of the big MSPs in the Netherlands. There, she achieved 80% revenue growth. With 15 years in the industry and tech, and now as a managing partner at Strives, her everyday life is aligning companies with the very latest technology and, of course, introducing that kind of business strategy element. So she's got amazing experience bridging sales and tech, and she's here to give her unique insights into how you as an MSP can evolve beyond technical support. Hope you enjoy it. Grab a notepad. Let's go.

James Steel:
Hi everyone and welcome to this episode. I've got a really interesting guest with me today. I love these ones particularly because our guest has an MSP background but doesn’t exclusively work in the MSP space, which I always love because it brings those fresh perspectives that we're always so desperate for. Hanneke Vogels combines 15 years of tech experience, she’s the published author of the book Sales Tech, and previously was in an MSP but now spends her time advising companies on how they should intersect their business requirements with technology. So absolutely the perfect person to have on the podcast. Hanneke, welcome.

First Impressions and Dutch Directness

[00:03:07] Hanneke Vogels:
Thank you.
James Steel:
Thanks for having me. I'm really happy to have you on and I'd like to dive straight in. We always get tactical, but we start off every episode with a misconception. So what do people get wrong about you when they first meet you?

Hanneke Vogels:
People think that I'm very combative and confronting, where I am actually pretty nuanced. I just do very well on one-liners. But just never make the mistake that it's just the one-liner. There’s always a story behind it that’s nuanced.

James Steel:
Very good. I love that. And actually, having spent some time with you, I think you’ve definitely, definitely driven and direct, and I think that’s a good thing. And it’s not going against the Dutch way, is it? Let’s be honest.

Hanneke Vogels:
No, I'm very Dutch.
James Steel:
Yeah, very Dutch, which is great.

From IT Support to Strategic Advisor

[00:03:50] James Steel:
So listen, let’s dive in then. Whenever I’m talking to MSPs, there’s a common theme that runs through some of the challenges they experience. And it’s often around getting away from being the IT people to becoming kind of the business advisor. You’re probably in a good place here. Although your expertise is all around the tech, you have to speak in the language of businesses. So any advice to help them make that shift?

Hanneke Vogels:
Well, I think that I’m in a lucky circumstance that I worked a lot within tech companies, so I understand tech very well. And I’m naturally very curious about it, because there’s always something else popping up, something else to endeavour. But I’ve always been in sales, which is for most salespeople pretty weird—to know that much about tech when you’re in sales, even though you’re selling it.
But I combine two of my loves. I love the sales profession, I love tech, and now it gives me the opportunity to bridge both professions. My tip is that when you have enough empathy for your customer—so if you really know your customer and know what’s going on—it’s easy to bridge that. Even if you come from tech, you can still manage to do that. When you’ve learned to speak their language, it’s about what it brings. And most of the time all of these experts know what it brings—they just never tell it, because they’re super excited about what it can do. But it all starts with the task and not the tool.

Would you like me to continue formatting the rest of the transcript in this style now?

You said:

yes please

ChatGPT said:

Perfect. Continuing in the same clean format — full-width, full sentences, no emojis, and with logical section headings and timestamps where the topic shifts significantly. Here's the next section:

Starting the Conversation with Context

[00:05:55] James Steel:
Do you have any questions that you ask when you go in, or do you just totally—I get the impression you probably just completely wing it, don’t you, from the level of experience that you have? But is there—do you think if you were to give some ideas or questions that are good to ask when you first go into a client and you want to have that business advisor head on, are there any good ones?

Hanneke Vogels:
The funny thing is that people think that I wing it, but experience isn’t winging it. Winging is just like more sort of luck, putting it out there. It has nothing to do with luck. It has to do with relentless preparations. If I want to start the conversation right—so after all of the chitchat—you want to dive in, I have that first question ready. And that question is always about the context. So, I've read this about your company—what does it mean? We've seen this on other clients, but is that true or is it something else? And then you're going into something deep, but it has nothing to do with your technology or whatever may happen. It has everything to do with their circumstances—something that has a really high place on their priority list.
And once you know stuff about that customer, you can talk about their world. And from that point on, you lead them towards your services and what you solve.

James Steel:
I really like that, and it’s such an important one to get right, isn’t it? And it ties into my next question actually, because I was going to ask you about—you know, you often will get kind of a remit and you’ve got a new client to work with, and it’s, you need to go in there as a business adviser like you’ve just said, do exactly that, be empathetic. You need to understand their industry pretty quick...

Using GPT to Accelerate Client Research

[00:07:34] James Steel:
Let’s just say it’s an MSP. They know they’re going to go and talk to one of their clients—maybe they've sold them a couple of services already and they want to take it to the next level with a project. It's green tech or some space they're not familiar with. How do you go about quickly getting up to speed with that new client?

Hanneke Vogels:
That used to be not quick. It used to take a lot of time to dive into industry reports, to figure out what was going on with that specific company. With all of the AI tools, it’s super easy to dive deep into some sort of industry. I sometimes even do it in the car—I just talk to ChatGPT and ask it to tell me about a specific industry, about pain points they might have, something that’s happening.

James Steel:
So pain points, just like topical news around their company, would you say? What other things would you look for?

Hanneke Vogels:
Even looking at shifts that are going on worldwide in that specific industry. What’s different maybe for the Netherlands or any other country you’re focused on. You want to dive into what’s happening with that company, specifics that happened there—takeovers in those industries or mergers going on—that might hit the agenda. That just speeds it up. It makes it super helpful to have your first questions ready, to have an idea where you think that conversation should go.

James Steel:
So it wasn’t long before we got into AI, was it?

I’ll continue formatting the rest just like this. Ready for the next segment?

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yes

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Continuing in the same format — full transcript, full-width, structured with section headings and timestamps:

Building Custom GPTs for Sales Prep

[00:09:00] James Steel:
Listen, great piece of advice—create dedicated GPTs. Something I’m just starting to really get to grips with as well for industry research. Build custom AI assistants that are analysing specific verticals for your clients and find pain points and industry shifts there so you’re in the know. Even get these things delivered to your inbox before you get to a client meeting and you’re quickly going to sound like an industry expert without those hours of prep. It’s all just there, done for you. Love it.
Is that something that most organisations should have these days? Like a separate GPT, like a separate setup primed already with the right questions, do you think, to get some sort of standardisation? Is that something that you look at in your world?

Hanneke Vogels:
That’s like the first step into this world and making sales life easier to get closer to their customer. It’s like having a basic set of GPTs, which is like child’s play to make for yourself once you’ve figured out your process for it. You’d have that as a report in your mailbox, having it automated. When an agent picks it up from your schedule or from your CRM, it just sends you that the day before so you can prep.

Restructuring the Sales Conversation

[00:10:10] James Steel:
So we’ve got to the stage then—we’ve gone in, we’re fully prepped and we’re having this conversation. What’s the way to craft that conversation so we can best marry up what we do with what they need?

Hanneke Vogels:
Well, I always thought I had to pitch right away—as soon as I can, tell everybody about how good it is, what we're selling. And I had a specific sales training back in, I think it was 2011. During that training I figured out that if I have a meeting of an hour, 45 minutes should be about the context and everything around it—where it hurts, quantifying that pain—and only the last few minutes I might give them some hints of what we could solve.
Instead of 45 minutes about your solution, it’s 45 minutes about them and their world and how much it hurts—that specific problem. And maybe you figure out if there’s more problems. But what if you miss something, all these great things that you’ve got to say? What happens if you don’t get them all out in the same meeting?

Less Selling, More Listening

[00:11:00] Hanneke Vogels:
The funny thing is that all research shows that if you want people to like you and think you’re valuable for them, you need to let them talk. So it’s not about sending information. It’s like short sentences, short pitches about what you could do for them or that you recognise or that you’ve seen it before. That’s it. That’s enough. Just one or two sentences and then ask a question again, because they will think that you know what’s going on without you actually telling them something.

The Role of Sales Tech and CRM Automation

[00:11:43] James Steel:
This episode is sponsored by Salesbuildr, where I work. I really wanted to tell you about us because I see so many MSP sales teams buried in admin instead of talking to customers and building relationships. We help you automate your sales process with standardised product catalogues and professional proposals. Our service matrix or the whitespace module—that’s the bit that shows you visually where the opportunities are in your customer base, from service gaps to upcoming renewals. Everything links directly with your PSA and of course your distributors. If you’d like to free up your sales team’s time and spot more revenue opportunities, simply connect with me on LinkedIn or head to salesbuildr.com. Let’s get back to it.

Tooling for Account Management

[00:12:28] James Steel:
Bearing in mind that we're talking to an audience of medium-sized MSPs normally, who have an inside sales and account management function—what tech is relevant that you see? Obviously you’ve written the book Sales Tech. Any key elements? You’ve got the child’s play GPTs, what else?

Hanneke Vogels:
I think that in general, you need to have a CRM, and a good one—a modern one. I just released an ebook on it. It doesn’t have to cost a ton of money, but you need to have something good where you can integrate with and automate in the background so that tool just does some of the heavy lifting for you.
I know a lot of MSPs struggle with outreach—just to get to the table, get in contact with people. And most of the work today can be done by tooling. So it’s more about being human and really understanding your audience than it is about using all of this tech. Because tech is what you use to do the heavy lifting, but you need to know what it needs to lift.

Building the Right Tech Stack for AMs

[00:13:49] James Steel:
I see what you're saying. It forces you to truly understand the client needs and articulate your solutions clearly. That’s going to create a stronger connection than just wheeling out your PowerPoint, even though it might feel nice and comfortable.

Hanneke Vogels:
Absolutely.

James Steel:
And I’m interested as well in the function of the account manager and what tools can help. I know obviously the human side is massively important, but I know you design solutions around tech that supports that human contact.
What would be your advice for an MSP that’s got that human side down, they know what they do, they know what they want to say—but is there a tech stack around account management that would help?

Hanneke Vogels:
I think that a good CRM is, for most account managers, already 70% of what you need. Because in that CRM you can create a couple of automation flows that can help you figure out when a contract needs to be renewed—and you need to start that renewal like a year before. You can have automations for that—when a deal will pop up when it’s a year before so you have it in sight.
When it comes to actual account management—making sure that you are at the customer or have contact with the customer—you can figure out a flow for every year based on how big your chances are for an upsell or a cross-sell. And you can just tell that system to alert your account managers: “Hey, you need to contact this person about this,” or “You need to contact that person about something cool that we are going to do, you're going to invite them to a social event.”
They have all these markers, so your account managers don’t have to think about the process—they can think about the content of it, which makes it even better. The system will tell you what to do, and that’s already such a big step forward.
Because I see in account management, especially with MSPs—and I’ve been in it for years—we tend to forget some of our customers because we weren’t able to get hold of that upsell or cross-sell. It’s really about staying connected with that customer, and you just need a tool to help you do that with some semi or fully automated outreaches.

Using LinkedIn and Alerts to Stay Proactive

[00:15:59] James Steel:
Whether you love it or loathe it, LinkedIn is such a gold mine and has so many uses because everyone is there.
Listen, what a great piece of advice—set up LinkedIn automation to alert you when client contacts change roles. Super simple, but it’s an early warning system that’s going to identify renewal risks before they materialise. If you integrate that with your CRM, this creates a nice kind of protective net around your most valuable relationships that competitors without this insight won’t have.
So what I’m hearing you say is that essentially the more information you can have as an account manager, as long as it’s relevant, the better. It’s all about being armed with the most information and alerted at the right times, and that’s where the automation should come in.

Hanneke Vogels:
Yeah, you can have RSS feeds. I already had that back in the day, where I just had some feeds with Google for most of my important clients. Have information be sent to my mailbox. You can have all of these tools give you that information and alert you when something is going on that you need to know—and that’s where the focus should be.

Rethinking Proposal Structure

[00:16:58] James Steel:
Listen, you mentioned the proposal and quotation sort of process—what you do and don’t like. Are there any best practices that you have around how you would not only create proposals, but also how they’re best presented?

Hanneke Vogels:
The contents of proposals—I know a lot about it, but there’s someone who knows way more than that and I learned from her. Her name is Saskia Kerkvliet. You need to, first, put the “about me” section to the back of your proposal because it’s not about you.
Then talk about your customer first. Then tell them what it would bring if you’d solve that. Then say how you’re going to solve it, and then your pricing. And then in the end, you can tell a little bit about yourself and your other services—but don’t let them go through 30 slides about you with all your customers. No. Make it about them.
Your proposal is never about you. It all starts again with the empathy for the customer and understanding their exact need and writing that down.

Helping Clients with Tech Adoption

[00:18:00] James Steel:
I think this whole area of sales tech is fascinating to me—it’s moving so fast. From your perspective, is this something an MSP listening should be not only getting up to speed on for themselves, but is there an opportunity here for MSPs to be helping their customers with the sales tech side of things?

Hanneke Vogels:
I don’t know if it’s sales tech specifically, but tech in general. What you see in a lot of companies is that they struggle. And you see that the whole MSP market is under pressure as well, simply because all of these big technology companies are taking up the services—they’re automating everything.
On the other hand, if you look at the companies using the tech—using all of these services—they struggle with functional and technical application management. Because within their company, there’s hardly any time, hardly any people, to take care of that.
Within Microsoft 365 they now have Copilot. Nobody knows how to use that. Everybody goes through a training and then forgets how to work with it. But if you can add that to your services—ask questions, do functional application management for them—that would work.
If you see a lot of the same applications on your platforms, why not specialise in them? Because you can do a lot of good there. If you step it up a little bit, you can really add something to your services and speed up the work of your customer.

The Opportunity with Copilot

[00:20:00] James Steel:
This is really something to take on board. Instead of getting caught up in competing on who’s selling Microsoft licensing, think about positioning yourself as the bridge between Microsoft’s insane rate of development in technology and your client’s practical usage.
Most clients are three to five years behind in adopting features that they already pay for. So there’s a massive opportunity there to deliver immediate value without actually selling anything new as such.
You mentioned Copilot—what most excites you about Copilot?

Hanneke Vogels:
It’s so integrated. And they know their own system, so integrating Copilot with the entire Microsoft stack is super smart. It won’t take that long before it can do pretty much all of the basic work that you’re doing—so you’re controlling Copilot to do stuff in all the other applications.

James Steel:
Where would you start with that if you were an MSP?

Hanneke Vogels:
I would ask my customers. Because your customer base is the first place where you will start upselling. The whole market is really a replacement market—it’s no longer really a big growth market. Ask what they’re struggling with.
There are still people that don’t know how to build a formula in Excel. Do you know what that means if you ask them to work with things like Copilot within your whole setup? The gap is huge.
We all think that it’s just super simple, but if you start with the most basic stuff, people will love you for it.

Industry Manure: A Rant on MSP Reactivity

[00:21:24] James Steel:
That’s a huge opportunity, isn’t it? And it’s understanding how big that gap is, where the most pain is—and then understanding that’s a huge monetisation opportunity for MSPs looking to differentiate themselves.
Hanneke, that’s been a good conversation, but we need to switch our attention to a segment we call Industry Manure. This part of the show is where you get to have a little rant about something you hear a lot. Now this is slightly different for you because you were in the MSP space but aren’t necessarily now—but something applicable to MSPs would be good.
Is there any advice that you hear in general that you’re kind of sick of hearing because you feel like it’s just that echo chamber effect and you want to put it to bed?

Hanneke Vogels:
It’s that they’re so freaking reactive. They only get into action when something’s happening—when they get a call. Be proactive. Say: “Hey, these are five things you could enhance. Here’s where you can save money. This is what we see happening on your platform.”
If you do it that way, it would be better. There are super smart people walking around in the MSP market—technically, but also business-wise. Start leveraging that. Just step forward. Help your customer do better.
I know it costs money to set it up—I know. But eventually it will bring back the connection that you really want.

Pass the Pitchfork: Client Demand

[00:23:00] James Steel:
There’s more of that brutal honesty, and it’s true. So many clients will look at you as an MSP like insurance—and if they’re doing that, you’re in the wrong place. You’re necessary, but not loved.
So make sure that you’re not in that trap. Don’t wait for calls about problems. Make sure you’re proactive, identify improvements, look for cost savings all the time, and ways you can be optimising platforms. That approach is really going to transform your relationship from being a commodity to a valued partner, which is the key to making sure that you have a sustainable relationship.
Our next segment is called Pass the Pitchfork. This is where I get to ask you a question from our previous guest. This is from James Davis from the TSP Advisory from last season. He asks: What do you see as the real client demand? What are clients actually asking for? How do we truly understand that and then focus on creating our business around it?

Hanneke Vogels:
They just want to feel that you understand them and that you fight for them. You work hard for them. You bring them more than they asked for. Under-promise, over-deliver. I think that’s the key to being customer centric.

Yell from the Barn

[00:24:42] James Steel:
So it’s your chance, Hanneke, to ask our next guest a question. What do you fancy asking? It could be an MSP, could be an industry expert—is there something you’d like answered on our next episode?

Hanneke Vogels:
Yes, I’d like to know what they think is the influence of AI in the MSP world. What are the changes it will bring? Because we’re just getting started. What will it bring for the operation of it—the operational side? How will it affect the MSPs’ operations themselves, the way they do business, the way they’re organised internally?

James Steel:
Excellent. Listen, it’s been wonderful chatting to you, Hanneke. Thank you so much for your time. We have a final segment which is a yell from the barn, and this is your opportunity to give a plug for Strives or your book or whatever it is you’d like to say—and let the listeners know where they can get in touch with you.

Hanneke Vogels:
Oh wow, so you're asking a salesperson to pitch, right? I usually don’t do that. But there is some sort of time limit—you know we’re kind of known for being short and punchy.
So let’s just do it super short: The way we’ve been doing sales has felt wrong for most MSPs for a long time. They’ve been doing it the way they’ve been doing it because they were taught that way.
If they really want to know how it’s done differently—what’s the next level of sales, where it should go, where it does feel authentic and is effective—just follow me on LinkedIn, maybe read my book, and contact me if you want some help.

James Steel:
Thank you so much. And I can highly recommend following Hanneke on LinkedIn—there’s loads of content she’s putting out, loads of interviews she’s doing. Really an authority in the space.
Lovely to get this opportunity to bring in some fresh faces and fresh perspectives. Hanneke, thank you so much for being with us. We’ll catch up with you very soon. Wishing you all the best.

Episode Close

[00:26:00] James Steel:
That was good, wasn’t it? I really enjoy talking to people who’ve got loads of experience but from outside the industry—or certainly on the periphery—about how we can generate more value from existing customers.
And Hanneke’s challenging MSPs just like you to shift from being reactive tech providers to proactive business partners—by doing things like creating custom AI research tools, setting up contact change alerts to be more in tune, abandoning PowerPoint for deeper conversations, bridging tech advancement gaps, and proactively identifying improvements continuously.
It will mean you’ll differentiate yourself in what is a crowded market. And you’ll go from being that necessary evil into having a genuine partnership that the clients truly value.
That’s it for this episode of Harvest. If you found this useful, all the links we mentioned are in the show notes. And of course, if you enjoyed it, please do leave us a review and share it with a friend—or even better, someone else in the industry who you know would get value from it.

Until next time—happy harvesting.

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