Products & Resources

Trust me, I'm a Saleman

James Steel [00:00:00]:
Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Harvest. And I've got a really special guest for you this time. And I love these ones because the guest this time comes from, not necessarily in the MSP space, has lots of fresh perspectives to share. He has helped thousands of technical people grow in the sales space and that's over 12,000 people across 10 countries. He's also the author of a book, Trust Me, I'm a Salesman. And he's also founder of sales hookup and B2B sales courses, B2B sales training services and Community Service. And he basically, the reason we're so happy to have him on Harvest is that he helps technical team grow revenue without that hard sell.

James Steel [00:00:40]:
So welcome Yuri van der Sluice. How you doing?

Yuri van der Sluis [00:00:43]:
Thank you. And congratulations on the pronunciation. Very good. Nice to see you again, James.

James Steel [00:00:50]:
Yuri, I can't tell you how nervous I was about that pronunciation, but I think we got there.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:00:55]:
You got it. You nailed it, man.

James Steel [00:00:56]:
Excellent. Listen, we're going to talk about something quite interesting today. So one of the major problems that MSPs have, we're sort of heading towards this sort of commoditization period where a lot of services do look the same. So everyone is trying to make sure they're really differentiating. And you've got quite a unique take on a way that you can do that. And it's around community. So let's dive straight in. Perhaps you can talk to us a little bit about the value of creating a community and what that actually means.

James Steel [00:01:23]:
Because I'm telling you now, that sounds like a lot of work for me as an msp.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:01:26]:
Yeah. So thank you. So first, let me give a little bit of background. So I remember, I think it was book written in 1995. I think it was around three models about leadership. It's either you have operational excellence, like cost leadership, you provide your service at the lowest cost. That's one way to do it. Like the Walmart, you're just the cheapest out there for reasonable quality or you're the most innovative one.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:01:56]:
You have something that nobody else has, like the Apples or the newest AI feature, and you're clearly the number one. That's innovation. Or you have customer intimacy. So those are the three main. You cannot have two or three. It's either or. That's their philosophy. So if you are not the most innovative in your space, if you're not the cheapest, then it's about customer intimacy.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:02:22]:
So customer intimacy sounds really nice. It's building relationships. That's nothing new. But how do you build that customer intimacy and one of the ways to do it is to build a sense of community. That's a very big word. But it comes down to making people feel that they belong to your brand, even if you're a relative smaller MSP, you have 100 clients, 200 clients, 500 clients. You're there with 20, 30 people. How can you create a sense of the day if they experience receiving your service? That it's not just that, but you also share something else together also with other clients and anybody can create that.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:03:05]:
And it's actually quite easy to start.

James Steel [00:03:08]:
Okay, give us some tactical ideas then. So what's the first thing I should do? Because when I think about community, I think about, oh, I'm going to have to put on a, this, this giant professional event that's going to SAP all my, all my time resources or have like an online community or there's many different forms it can take. So what do you recommend then for me, Mr. And Mrs. Medium Sized MSP?

Yuri van der Sluis [00:03:28]:
Well, the first thing you have to determine is who do you want to be, what is your identity? And usually it's analysed out of what technology services do we deliver, what's in our portfolio? So it's around your tech solutions. Solutions. But, but as a brand you're a lot more than that. So who do you want to be? You can be playful, you can have a mission. What's your mission? What's your purpose? How are you going to help your clients? Because still, I mean, everybody knows this technology is a means to an end. It has an impact, it has an outcome to your clients. Now obviously I think that one of the best ways is, is that you have a client portfolio that all share something. There's a reason why they're your clients.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:04:21]:
There's a re. What is that reason? Now maybe they're all in the hospitality space or they're hospitals or they're in a legal space or in an industry.

James Steel [00:04:31]:
Does this work better in. Does this work better in. If you, if you establish some kind of vertical focus, whether it's totally niching down or is that, is that the case here?

Yuri van der Sluis [00:04:40]:
So vertical. Verticals is fantastic. I love verticals. But it's not necessarily that it has to be verticals. As long as they all share they have something in common. If they have nothing in common, it's also really difficult to provide a consistent, predictable customer experience because one wants this intimacy. The other one said, I never want to talk to you. It has to work.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:05:05]:
Somebody else wants the cheapest. Somebody else wants to learn about new technologies and it's all over the place. So the more that your clients are kind of look alikes, for example sectors, but there are also other ways, other ways how to look at clients. But, but the whole point is there's a common denominator and the stronger it is, the more you can actually create a brand.

James Steel [00:05:29]:
I'm just thinking about, I'm just, sorry, I'm just imagining like some of the MSPs looking back at their customer base and thinking, well, I've got, I've got three that are in the legal sector, I've got a couple of, couple of finance guys. They're not going to have that much in common. Are there any other, what grounds would you suggest you look for, for commonalities? Is there, is there a tech argument there? So perhaps they're all particularly, I don't know, maybe it's a cyber focus.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:05:50]:
I love that question. So the point is you actually create a combination. So what tech do you deliver, how do you deliver it? And who are your clients? And where is the fit the best? So we've seen an explosion, especially in the security in a cloud space and it was just land grabbing and, and there was so much need and not, not a lot of suppliers. Now since we are in a commoditizing space, it doesn't matter who your clients are because they came from left and right and business is business money, money is money and it's fine. But just because your former strategy got to where you are now doesn't mean that if you continue on this path, you can just continue to grow like that. So you have to really look at your client portfolio. Who suits best to your, your brand and why? And maybe over time one of those finance clients, maybe that's not a good fit because their requirements on compliance and other things is not something that you are intrinsically motivated. And you see that your portfolio doesn't really fit that well.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:06:59]:
You're competing to other MSPs that have only finance. So you have to ask yourself, well, keep them for as long as you can, but maybe those are not your future clients or around 40% of your clients are in finance and the rest is just all over the place. Maybe it makes sense that you, that you move more towards finance or lookalike clients that would fit your client portfolio better because then you can answer the fundamental question other than the way how you deliver your services, for what price? Who do you want to be? What is your brand? What do you want them to experience? What is your mission? What's your purpose. How do you want to help your clients? Now, once that's very clear, then you've instantly opened up this idea of community. Now I know that community is a huge word, but you can start extremely, extremely small because let's say you have clients in the, in the financial space. They also experience a lot of changes and innovation in their business around compliance, around virtual banking and around optimization and risk security. There are specific trends, I'm not an expert in finance, but there are specific trends that they are facing all the time and they want to talk about it, they want to learn. So as an msp, you have to be aware what it is because their world indirectly should be your world.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:08:33]:
You can never say, I'm just delivering this technology and whatever happens, your business, that's your business. No, it's the other way around.

James Steel [00:08:41]:
That's such an important point, isn't it? It really is. I think that's the transition that we need to make is almost immersing ourselves in the client businesses.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:08:48]:
But you can't, if your clients are all over the place because how can you be an expert in the, the hospital, the healthcare space and in the finance space and, and then you're, there you go, there's just you, you can do that.

James Steel [00:09:03]:
And I think that's going to be the challenge. You know, I think that's for a lot of people listening. They'll be thinking, actually I've got quite a diverse spread, so they're going to start thinking, okay, what other commonalities are. There are, there are definitely trends. There's this cyber, there's AI, there's things that affect a lot of companies. But let's just say then. So we're, we're totally sold on this idea. It sounds good.

James Steel [00:09:19]:
We need to, we need to put in place some sort of community. What happens? Where does the magic happen? Why should I make the effort to do this?

Yuri van der Sluis [00:09:27]:
Yeah, so as I mentioned, you have cost leadership, innovation or customer intimacy. So if the cost of changing and switching, if there's not a sense of this lock in idea, and I can easily say, sorry, I'm not going to renew. Flick of a switch and I go with another, with another vendor, another msp, if that is getting easier and easier, then if you don't provide something else of value, where is the customer loyalty actually coming from? Because just to do a good job may not be enough because they pay for something. Okay, forget with the idea of I'm not making any mistakes. So you'll stay? No, no, Every business owner will Always look to optimise and either they experience something else or they go for something that's similar or better for cheaper. That's just human nature. So you have to do something else. Now, one of the ways, and there are thousands of things, but one of the ways is to create more loyalty, more loyalty to your brand.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:10:34]:
Where does it come from? You can, like the account manager, you can have a good relationship, but it's also extremely powerful. Let's say if you're the party host, you are the host of a nice party and people come to your party, now suddenly they meet other people, they love it, there's this fantastic vibe and you're the host, you made it all happen. Now if they stop, they're going to miss out on the parties, but they really like the parties because there's this social networking, this social fabric, this belonging, and it's not just party and drinking. All also the conversations and stuff that comes out of it also actually is beneficial to the, to these companies, to these people. Now, again, if these clients have nothing in common, then it's going to be a strange party.

James Steel [00:11:24]:
So it's the. Not. It's the knowledge sharing, essentially, isn't it? So it's, it's being amongst your, being amongst your peers, which I think we're as, as I think in the MSP space. We're definitely familiar with that. We have, you know, obviously MSPs are very good at sharing. Now I think there's that sort of, that sort of, you know, no competition feel about how we, you know, cooperation. I think it's, I think it's called. So I think we've got that, got that idea.

James Steel [00:11:45]:
So in terms of, okay, this, this sounds like a good idea. I can see that. I want to put something together, whether it's a party or it's a. Some other sort of event. Where would you say, where's the best place to start? I've never done this before. Where do you recommend I start? Do I start small? Do I start virtual? Do I just go for it? What's the, what's the take there?

Yuri van der Sluis [00:12:02]:
So you can start before rolling out a strategy by having conversations with your clients about their business. And then you ask questions around what are the key trends in your business? What are your challenges? And you ask the same questions to other lookalikes and then you can just drop a simple message saying, hey, would you find it beneficial if I connect you to one of our other clients? Because they're actually facing a similar challenge. And then you will find out that some would actually love to talk to their peers because lawyers go to lawyer conferences, doctors go to doctor conferences, Peer to peer networking is as old as ever. We love to talk to others who do the same as us because we can do some knowledge sharing. The market is big enough and it's not that sensitive that you're going to share your deepest secrets and you reveal your patents and your profit numbers. No, let's talk about the industry, what you experience and this is how collaboration also starts. A lot of these companies can collaborate and find partnerships as well, but start with asking questions about their business, their challenges and then the moment you can see overlap in their answers, you can just connect clients and the moment they're connected and you be, you are actually the person that made that connection happen, then suddenly there is already this little bit of loyalty. Now if you do this, you know, month after month, then you find out, hey, wow, I got 10 clients, they all have the same.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:13:48]:
Maybe if we can organise like a round table or a way how to get to get together. It can be physical, it can be virtual, doesn't matter. And tie that challenge into some relevance of your technology, of your offering, your portfolio. If there's anything you can do that impacts the larger trend. It doesn't, you don't have to solve it. It's not about technology, but where technology plays a role. Yes, it's, then it's very relevant. You say, well, I'm just a part of it, I'm not going to solve it for you.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:14:20]:
But maybe it's nice to discuss this together. Now this has tremendous value and this might help to create loyalty that they're not going to leave to somebody else who only just delivers the technology. People love that because if they just want to learn, they just go listen to a podcast or they read a book. No, the thing is they want to be there because they want to connect to other people. The more technology, the more AI, the more there is a need for the social fabric and people long for, for having deep, meaningful connections. So before you know it, you become the, the in crowd of the, of their industry. Even though you're a tech supplier, but doesn't matter, you, you becoming part of their world. You're just the person that takes initiative and you create a platform where they can connect.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:15:13]:
The, the only thing is you have to remember is you need to tie it into your portfolio.

James Steel [00:15:18]:
Is there anything you can add that might, let's say, keep that effect going so the event is over. We've, I think we've established how to put together A quite successful event here. I found this really useful. How do I keep this going between events? I mean, you know, we're fairly limited on resources, so we can't be doing these all the time. Let's say it's once a quarter. Can I. Is there anything I can do to really sort of keep that kind of peer to peer collaboration going without me sort of running a full blown, you know, community myself?

Yuri van der Sluis [00:15:44]:
Yeah. So the, the easiest and the cheapest way would be to create a WhatsApp group where you ask people, who wants to be in WhatsApp group, where we share these ideas together, you host it, and some people say, yeah, I would love to. And then people will share comments. Again, it's very important to make it clear what the theme is. So it's not just funny memes or jokes being shared.

James Steel [00:16:11]:
As you were saying that. I was just thinking that could go so badly wrong, particularly with someone.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:16:17]:
But if you're the host of this WhatsApp group, for example, he said, well, here we share relevant industry and technology trends that will help us all. Yeah, and people will share links, some things they've, they've read. You can also share some stuff that you're working on and it's in teams.

James Steel [00:16:32]:
Or Slack as well.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:16:33]:
Right.

James Steel [00:16:33]:
I mean, it doesn't have to be whatever works.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:16:35]:
So you can, so you can keep that going like that. You can also create a networking between one to one. This is the platform that I've built, so where I match people with each other for meetings. So there, there are also other platforms that actually can do that. You can also do smaller, like small, so this is like a bigger quarter event. But you can also do like a monthly Friday, drinks, drinks and thoughts or something else for, for 10 people that can come to your office and from 4 to 5 every first Friday of the month, for example, for up to 10 people that can go there.

James Steel [00:17:26]:
So it's particularly well for MSPs because I think, you know, in a lot of cases, apart from the larger ones, you know, they are serving a local, you know, local geographic area. So that, that, that should work pretty well. Yeah, Listen, Yuri, we have a bit of a tradition on the podcast and that is we like to talk about what we think is not necessarily great advice in the industry. What is a crock of shit and we call it Industry manure is our section. So is there anything that you hear in the space? Now you're, you're, you do work with MSPs, but also you're in the sort of, obviously the sales arena. As well. Is there any advice that you hear that just doesn't ring true that really, really grinds your gears?

Yuri van der Sluis [00:18:04]:
Well, you know I'm in the business of BB sales. I've trained 30,000 people now in the BB sales. Some are MSPs, but around 80% is in the tech space and almost, I don't know like 80% of the, the people that I train they believe in consultative selling. Everybody belsing believes in consultative selling and the funny and it's, the funny thing is if you actually see them, how they sell is everything but constitutive selling and it's terrible. It's like somebody having a meeting with a client said they were really customer focused but didn't ask a single question about their business. Saying your customer focused doesn't make you customer focused. The same as I'm funny. You think oh the guy is not funny, tell a joke, then maybe you think I'm funny.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:18:55]:
It doesn't work like that. So people say that they do consult of selling usually is a crocker shit because they actually have no idea how to actually do it. To give advice that is unfounded, un based without any understanding of the business challenges and you just give technical advice or advice. It just, that's just generic is not consultative selling and unfortunately 80% or even more have no clue how to actually sell from a consultative way because it's more analytical and it's, it's a lot more difficult. What, what a lot of people think it is.

James Steel [00:19:38]:
I listen, I imagine we could do a whole other episode on that but I'm going to just push you just for one question. What do you think is a good place to start? If you have one question to turn your non consultative approach around so one that's more customer focused genuinely. Is there any, any place you'd recommend people start with that? Is there a question that technical people should perhaps keep in mind? Yeah. What would you say in a meeting? You know like well I've got, I've got a, I've got a quarterly business review or whatever it might be. Is there, is there a good place to start in terms of understanding the customer's needs?

Yuri van der Sluis [00:20:08]:
Yeah. So first I would first go beyond tech. It's because tech is, it's business first then tech, not the other way around. So ask a business, ask a question about the business. So that is the first when what if I, I only have one question. If it's an existing client quarter business review I would ask the following. What is the biggest priority that you hear from your business or in your business, that is the number one priority for you this year. Open question.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:20:50]:
Speak about the business and understand the environment that they're in. Because whatever it is, it directly impacts what they will do with technology or what they need with technology.

James Steel [00:21:02]:
Love that, Yuri. We have a final section. We call it Pass the Pitchfork. Now this is where we give you a question from a previous guest of the episode and then we ask you to give us a question for the next guest. So, first of all, our last guest was Ian Groves. He's an MD of Start Tech Technology at MSP and he was keen to know, and I know you will have some experience in this space. How can vendors and MSPS work together better? So on the vendor side you have a lot of very sizable organisations with significant resources and perhaps not so much on the MSP side in some cases. How can the two work together? Is there any way you can see supplier and customer working better together in that kind of scenario, if that makes sense?

Yuri van der Sluis [00:21:49]:
My first thought that comes to mind is the biggest challenge the vendors have is that they don't have the customer intimacy that you as an MSP have. MSPs should know their clients a lot better, a lot more intimate and in with a lot more details. So make sure that you capture the needs, the situation, how they use the technology, what they like, what they don't like. Capture that frequently with a lot of data, statistics, insights, capture it and make a little report about it on it, and then you can actually speak to the vendor with those insights because it's extremely valuable. It also makes you more valuable as an msb. It also increases your relationship with the vendor and it allows you as an msp, even if it's a huge vendor, to actually influence the way how you cooperate and do stuff together. In fact, if you do it really well, maybe you can invite a vendor that is also interested in the finance or the health care industry and know that that's what your focus is. And they also want to learn and be part of their brainstorm so that it's the feedback loop, because that is your.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:23:05]:
Your biggest asset is your clients, how they use the technology and their experience. Because vendors are, especially if they go through MSP channels, they're further away. So this is where there is a very good opportunity if you do it methodologically, logically and frequently.

James Steel [00:23:27]:
I love that, Yuri. That's fantastic. Having sat on the vendor side in numerous occasions, I know that feeling of being removed and how much that would have meant to me at the time. Actually, to get that real Sort of cold face feedback. That's brilliant. Yuri, what is your question for our next guest?

Yuri van der Sluis [00:23:43]:
So, for my next guest, let's say you're in negotiation and you don't want to drop the price. What are ways to show value without saying that you provide great service or that you have all this lot of value? What are strategies to keep your margin without saying stuff that everybody else says as well?

James Steel [00:24:09]:
What a cracking question. I love that. Yes, I've really enjoyed this conversation. It's been wonderful having you on. Can we do a quick shout out? Where can people connect with you and find out more about what you do? Because you wear numerous hats, so give us a quick overview of what they are.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:24:21]:
Yeah. So sales training is still what I do, but my most important hat besides or outside sales training is I'm the founder of Sales Hookup, which is a global matching and learning platform for B2B sales professionals and founders that are interested to do peer to peer networking. I match them, you choose a time slot, you get matched with another founder or senior salesperson somewhere in the world. We've got 5,000 members, but also we offer virtual roundtables with experts. These can be CTOs, CIOs, but also sales experts. Free master classes that are organised on on my platform and it's free. People can sign up salesmucup.com or anybody can connect with me personally as well. Yuri Vandersloos.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:25:10]:
Y U R I well Vandersloos Dutch name, but they can look me up on LinkedIn.

James Steel [00:25:14]:
I know why you're Yuri Vander on your domain name. That makes total sense to me now. I love that, Yuri. I've loved talking to you. If you're willing, I'd love to get you back because I know you've got a wealth of knowledge in so many other areas, but that's been great to explore community with you. Really enjoyed it and we'll see you soon.

Yuri van der Sluis [00:25:30]:
Thank you as well, James. Thank you.

James Steel [00:25:31]:
Cheers.

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